Grief is a voyage through the darkest of tunnels, where the light at the end is often imperceptible. Imagine navigating this path while striving to guide your family out of the shadows and into a life rebuilt on the foundation of loss. That's the harrowing and ultimately inspiring journey our guest Tonje shares with us, as she recounts the transformation sparked by the passing of her youngest daughter, leading to what she calls her "life 2.0." Her courage to embrace personal growth and happiness as a tribute to her daughter's memory is a powerful lesson in love, resilience, and the human spirit's capacity to heal.
Tonje, a coach, consultant, entrepreneur, and, most importantly, a mom and lifelong learner. Growing up as a tomboy and navigating male-dominated industries, she prided herself on her toughness, often keeping her emotions under wraps. Tonje always harbored a deep desire to help people but found it challenging to balance her tough exterior with the emotional aspects of support and empathy.
Everything changed for Tonje when she faced the heart-wrenching experience of losing her daughter. This tragedy shattered her reality and forced her to rebuild her life with a new perspective – one where being tough didn't mean hiding her emotions.
Today, Tonje is on a powerful mission: To equip 100 million people by 2040 with the emotional intelligence and resilient mindsets needed to create fulfilling lives. Her journey has transformed her approach to traditionally taboo subjects like death and grief, turning them into catalysts for meaningful conversations, stronger communities, and transformative personal growth.
Tonje is here to share this journey with others, to explore how we can support each other through life's toughest challenges, and to find strength and fulfillment in even the most difficult moments.
7 step guide : Support your loved ones through tough times
https://www.tonjewynjones.com/7stepsupport
Grief is a voyage through the darkest of tunnels, where the light at the end is often imperceptible. Imagine navigating this path while striving to guide your family out of the shadows and into a life rebuilt on the foundation of loss. That's the harrowing and ultimately inspiring journey our guest Tonje shares with us, as she recounts the transformation sparked by the passing of her youngest daughter, leading to what she calls her "life 2.0." Her courage to embrace personal growth and happiness as a tribute to her daughter's memory is a powerful lesson in love, resilience, and the human spirit's capacity to heal.
Tonje, a coach, consultant, entrepreneur, and, most importantly, a mom and lifelong learner. Growing up as a tomboy and navigating male-dominated industries, she prided herself on her toughness, often keeping her emotions under wraps. Tonje always harbored a deep desire to help people but found it challenging to balance her tough exterior with the emotional aspects of support and empathy.
Everything changed for Tonje when she faced the heart-wrenching experience of losing her daughter. This tragedy shattered her reality and forced her to rebuild her life with a new perspective – one where being tough didn't mean hiding her emotions.
Today, Tonje is on a powerful mission: To equip 100 million people by 2040 with the emotional intelligence and resilient mindsets needed to create fulfilling lives. Her journey has transformed her approach to traditionally taboo subjects like death and grief, turning them into catalysts for meaningful conversations, stronger communities, and transformative personal growth.
Tonje is here to share this journey with others, to explore how we can support each other through life's toughest challenges, and to find strength and fulfillment in even the most difficult moments.
7 step guide : Support your loved ones through tough times
https://www.tonjewynjones.com/7stepsupport
Welcome to grief sucks life after loss. I am your host, linda, and today we are with Tonya. Welcome. We thanks for being here with us today.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for having me. I've been looking forward to this.
Speaker 1:And I think you have a lot to share today. Yes, and I think that we have a lot to talk about, yeah, so I'll let you start tell us about yourself and what what you do and what your, your mission is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, that is a big question, so stop me if I drag it on.
Speaker 1:Oh no.
Speaker 2:So my name is Tonya and I am Norwegian. That's why my name is spelled slightly weird. That's also where I currently live with my husband and three of our four children, and reason there's only three in the house is because our youngest of the daughters passed away In 2018. And that was really what sparked my life 2.0. As I like to say it. Before that, I was living your normal daily good life, right, and I know you've spoken about it before and sharing your story as well, which I think is one of the things we really resonate with is that when something that tremendous happens in your life, your life just ends and you have to turn you on.
Speaker 1:That just brought me on half of self?
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely. And and you're at a crossroads, you know you can either try to hold on to the little bit you have left or you can try and find a new life, and I chose the second option. Yeah, so that brought me on to first figuring out how to do that to myself, and now it's my mission to help others.
Speaker 1:And during that, though, not only did you have to get yourself through it, you had to help your husband and the other children through it. And how did you? Because it's hard to get yourself through it, and I had myself and my two kids, but my kids were 20, 21 and 13. So it's a little bit older Doesn't necessarily make it easier, but, I think, depending on the situation, so how did? How much harder, I guess, was that to try to help everybody get through it at the same time, all while you feel like your life is flipped upside down and, just like you said, stopped, and then now you got to find this new life.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's interesting actually because in in one way it's easier. Initially, because you know you have to get out of ego in a way. Right Like when my daughter died, I didn't really see a reason for me to kind of go on. The pain is so tremendous, it's so hard and your own life is like it. Like I said, it's over and I can completely understand why people would want to like throwing the towel, so to speak, but because I still had, and we had, two daughters when, when the youngest passed away, and so I still have the oldest one who needed me and I had my husband who needed me.
Speaker 2:And vice versa, him the same, you know. So we couldn't create that pain on anyone else. So that made us kind of, okay, we have to get through this somehow. We have to stay in the game, because otherwise we're going to give this pain to someone else. So in that sense it was actually a little helpful just to kind of push you through the darkest days. That makes sense.
Speaker 1:It does, because I think I kind of did a little bit of the same, because my, my kids had never had a loss really that affected them, so for losing their dad, of course, this was their first major loss. They had also lost their grandmother the same day. So it was just a bunch of going on and and I felt like I had to teach them how to get through that Because, like you said you, you then understand how people want to throw in the towel, but I had to teach my kids how to get through that without wanting to do that. So it was just a, it was hard, but you, I think, as a mom especially, you just do what you got to do to get through it, no matter what.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely, and for a long time. I don't know about you, but for a long time that was all that was going to keep me going and I actually thought that I was doing a good job as a mom, because I was just like I'm just going to do what I need to do to be a good mom Me myself, my personal happiness doesn't matter, I just need to be there for her. And I thought I was doing a good job, thinking that that was enough and that was okay. But that's not really true, is it? Because we cannot be our best self to anyone else if we're not okay ourselves?
Speaker 1:And I think I often go back and wonder if I did it right, and I don't know that there's a right or a wrong way, because you're just doing what you have to do. But sometimes I'm like did I, I guess, did I do what I thought I was doing to help them, or did I not?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't think there's a way around that. I think everybody's always going to have doubt in what they do and what you could have done better with. You know what you could have done differently. The only thing that's certain is that you can't go back and do it differently, so the only.
Speaker 2:Thing you can do is to do better from here on out, and the beauty in that is that we always have that option. We can always look at what we did in the past and get better. So I try to not spend too much time on did I do the right thing, but I do reflect on it, like you're saying and seeing like, okay, what can we take from that? What can I use from that, and is there something we should revisit to deal with better in the future?
Speaker 1:So how do you think I know that? So you mentioned that your life kind of stopped and then you created this new life. Do you ever feel like and I'm asking because I feel like it sometimes Do you feel like if this tragic incident that happened, then maybe you wouldn't be where you are today, or something good when it half came out of that? Because I feel that guilt often and I'm like did I really have to lose him to get here in life?
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh yeah, I definitely feel you there, absolutely, and I actually say this quite a bit that, although I would do anything I could to bring my daughter back I would do anything I still have a much better life today than I ever did before, when she was alive. And it actually like, oh, I could feel when you're saying like you have that guilt, because I used to feel that as well, like I still think that thought, but I don't have any guilt associated with it anymore, because it's not that she had to die for me to get here. I don't know what would have happened, but I've chosen to have a great life from here on on, because I'm doing that to honor her and make sure that something good comes out of her passing. That's my choice and I'm doing that in in honorary of her. So therefore, I don't have to go.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I feel it. I feel that too, and that's why I started the podcast, because I just felt like something, going through all the things, you just feel so alone and I don't think that we talk about it enough, and I just it was heavy on my heart that something good had to come out of this, and so I chose this route and so far it's been perceived very well and everybody seems to resonate with it, because we just simply don't talk about it enough.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I completely agree, I do, and I think it's so beautiful that you because I know you you like to say that you're unfiltered and wrong and you might be awkward and how you deal with it, but that's your beauty way of doing it Right, that's your Eunice coming out to it.
Speaker 2:And we're all so different and grief is so different. We all have our different experiences. There is no one way that's the right way, but just bringing the attention to it, just normalizing the conversations about grief, because I think that one of the biggest problems and you know you tell me if you feel this as well but for me I felt, especially when I was in like the deepest, like to call it the despair phase of grief One of the things that made it so much worse was that people around me didn't know what to say or do Nobody knew how to treat me, and I think that comes from the fear of doing something wrong, because we're not prepared, because we think that talking about grief is so scary it's almost contagious, and we don't want to open some kind of Pandora's box.
Speaker 2:I think if we can just normalize the conversation so that people aren't terrified of even you know approaching people, I think that that would just make it so much easier, because it is a natural part of life.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely, and I think a lot of people stay away because they don't know how to approach you, they don't know what to say to you and eventually I think that those people just disappeared from your life because of that instance. I know that I feel like a few did in my life and I think it just stems from they. They don't know how to deal with it. They don't know how to talk to you about it and, like I told somebody once, it would have been a lot easier for us to talk about it and deal with it together versus separate and end up losing a friendship of a very long time over over all of it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and like are those friendships that you think you would have wanted to have and could have had if they had just had the tools to know how to approach you.
Speaker 1:Yeah it's. I think it's a hit and miss. I think, um, no, I believe that a lot of people were put in your life for a reason. I don't think everybody was meant to stay. I feel like I've lost a lot of people, but I've gained some as well that are really good for my new life. So I I think some would have said, if we had the tools, yes, we just didn't know how to get past that, and I think there was just anger and a lot going on and nobody knew how to deal with it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, that that happens a lot, unfortunately, definitely does so. Then again, like you said, there's also beauty in it, because and I think this is one thing that a lot of people have a hard time accepting, especially the ones that are closest to us, because they love us how, how we are, they love us how they've always known us, and then we go through something terrible that makes us get a new life, because you can't go back to what you had. You have to change because you're growing with this experience and they want you to go back to how you were. But that's not an option and it's hard for them to accept. But but there as well it's. It's a lot about the unknowing right. They see that you can't go back and that's painful for them because they're not really understanding that.
Speaker 1:well, this is just what you need, you know, yeah, and I think your whole perspective of life has changed as well, and maybe that the pieces just don't fit like they used to, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2:Definitely yeah, absolutely I agree.
Speaker 1:So what are some kind of things that you do to honor your daughter or get the word out to help others dealing with grief?
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, I'll answer your first question first. So to honor my daughter, like in more the personal aspect of it, you know, we have some small things and some big things. Like we have big things we have two days set aside for her each year and that's the day she was born and the day she passed away. Those are two days that we honor, that were always off and we spent together as a family, my husband and our kids even the two boys who never got to know her because they were born after, but it's important for them as well to get to take part in that. So we get together and on our birthday we actually make it a birthday, like we have one gift each for the kids and we have a cake, and you know, and then we watch movies and we talk about her and try to keep it kind of kind of light in a way, but still just give room for emotions and questions.
Speaker 2:And then on the day that she passed away, then we don't have any of the gifts and it's more just a day of being together and like if they have any questions, and we memorize about her, we watch movies and pictures and, you know, just just hold space for each other really, and then throughout the year, like it's simple things like a light, a candle, for every day.
Speaker 2:That's very, to me, very important and the kids like it, you know, and they get to connect to her by seeing that light. So we have like small things of that, you know, having pictures, talking about making sure that she's always a part of our life, so that it's not on and off. Because that's one thing that I definitely noticed, and also with so many I've spoken about with brief, is if you try to turn it on and off, then the longer that off gets becomes it's more painful to turn it on again. Yeah, so instead it's like just kind of keeping it there all the time. That doesn't mean you have to go around being sad all the time, you don't have to go around crying all the time. No, you're just acknowledging it's there.
Speaker 1:And I think that helps the healing and that's something we did from start was I mean, we talk about him every day. And we're two years in and we still talk about him often and almost every day and I think if you try to tuck it away and forget about it, that just that alters your healing process. I think talking about it, talking about them, helps to heal.
Speaker 2:Yeah absolutely, it really does, because you, like I said, it just gets more painful and then you get the guilt for not talking about him or not thinking about him, and it just all adds up to this giant painful ball. So, yeah, and then your second question was what do I do to help people? So I, through my whole healing process, I dive completely into, like, personal growth and you know everything I could do, because I realized that I had to get myself out of that situation. You know I mentioned it before that I was just, initially, I was just living for my daughter, but then I noticed that that wasn't very healthy, because all of a sudden I noticed that she wasn't doing well, because she was worried about me, even though I thought I was hiding it and just, you know, being a good mom, they pick up on these things and you know it wasn't enough for her that I was just there for her and I realized that I had to, I had to actually get a life for myself again. So that's when I started like, okay, what can I do? What can I get into? And that brought me into coaching, which was the, the thing that had the biggest impact on myself and I ended up doing like coaching degrees and certificates myself.
Speaker 2:So now I help men and women who suffer with grief to create new, fulfilling, amazing lives with grief, because I truly believe that grief is something you have to learn to live with. It's not something you're getting through or moving past. It's something that's just going to be a part of you. And then also I work a lot, especially like with my social media, and also I've got like online courses. It's I work to try and spread awareness about how to support someone in grief. So I talk a lot about about that and I really wanted to bring that out to the masses, you know, and join you in the work that you're doing about like opening up these conversations and making them not taboo anymore, because I think there's a lot of small things that people can learn to do that aren't that hard or painful and they make such a difference for those who are going in grief.
Speaker 1:And the small things are things that you don't unless somebody says it or shows you. You don't think about it when you're going through that process. I understand I'm into diving into that personal self help type thing because I did that as well and that definitely helped me and I know a lot of people go to counseling and you know therapists and things like that and some people it's it's for and they enjoy it helps, and some people it doesn't. I personally love coaches because they've, most of the time they went through the things that they're trying to help you get through. They understand where has? I'll say it again, most therapists may not have gone through what you have gone through, so they may help a little bit, but they don't fully understand for me. They don't fully understand enough to help the way that you need help, I guess, is. So I personally love coaches for that reason.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I couldn't agree more.
Speaker 1:So you have classes and you have your coaching business, and I forgot where I was going with that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's not. Actually it's not that I have an online recorded program that's called grief on tangle. So that's it's an easy but very comprehensive course. But it's easy to go through in the way that it's like short videos, because I realized that people don't want to like sit in their scare just to even look at this topic, so to sit with long videos is not the best thing, but so it's very comprehensive that way. But then I also said I love offering up free information and advice on it as well. I just want to really spread the information and spread awareness about it. So but yeah, it's very much about like talking about the dos and the don'ts of grief support and like I've created a model that I call the three phases of grief, which by knowing you can kind of understand better how to approach somebody, because you can identify where they're at and their grief, and that really opens up the awareness and your ability to you know. Come to them and say not the right, not the wrong thing, you know, which is something you are afraid of.
Speaker 1:Can we talk about the dos and the don'ts?
Speaker 2:Sure, yeah, we can. Where do you want to start? Wherever you want to? Okay, well, we can. Why don't we take two dos and two don'ts? Okay, start there. So we'll start with the don'ts.
Speaker 2:So the biggest thing, the main thing that I think most people should focus on to avoid, is avoidance, and it's a very, very go to response for people. Right, they see somebody off in a distance and they know that they've experienced a loss and they feel that low panic, like I don't know what to say, I'm just going to pretend like I don't see them and they walk away. You know, the problem is for the person who's in grief, even though they might look like they're all in their brain and in the way they are, they're still very, very, very acutely aware of their surroundings, because you're in that self protective mode and you're looking for trouble. So when somebody and I experienced this so many times myself and everybody I've spoken to who has lost somebody really like dear to them, have experienced the same thing and you notice, you see, when they're avoiding you and it hurts so bad.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, so that's the first biggest do that I would start with, and then the second would be, which is also huge get out of your ego. So don't come from your ego. It's not about you, and I think that alone is going to be a big shift for most people, because if you're worried about what you're going to say, if you reflect, why are you worried? You're worried because you don't want to make an ass of yourself, right? So get out of your ego. It's not about you. That opens you up and it's unlikely that you will then say something really stupid. I don't know if you reflect, if you resonate with that, if you've had that happen to you.
Speaker 1:Oh, absolutely both. Yep, and you do notice. You notice when people are ignoring you, you notice when they're walking away because they think you didn't see them. You notice all of that, like you said, even though you're in your head. I think I was in a solid fog for the first year. But things like that you notice because you, you truly need your people, but they just, some, just don't know how to be there, and I mean truly some of my, I think, very best friends. They would just show up at my house unannounced and they would just sit there and not say, oh, we'd sit there and watch TV and that's it. And that truly meant so much to me definitely more than they will ever understand and just no words, just be in there.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, absolutely, because that's what you, that's what you need, isn't it?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So then, the well. I would actually say that the biggest do is probably almost the same as the last don't, only opposite. So come from a place of service, like come from a place of compassion. If you lead with compassion, put yourself aside, lead with compassion, then it will flow through you much more naturally what you need to say and do. And then also, I want to highlight another do, which is active listening, which is something we're not very well trained on doing anymore.
Speaker 2:We all want to talk, talk, talk, and if you focus on listening, the beauty is that means you don't even have to talk. You're not going to say the wrong thing, you're right, then, and it kind of helps itself out. But that is so powerful. And listening doesn't necessarily mean that they have to talk either. You know, it can be just to sit with them and listen and then, whenever they feel ready, if they feel ready, if they want to talk, let them lead the way, and then they talk. But if they don't talk, well, you just stay quiet with them, and there's true beauty in that.
Speaker 1:That's very powerful and that's huge. That's a big, big help. Do you feel like after your daughter died? Do you feel like you went through a phase where you were just total fog, Don't remember what happened, what went on for so long?
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, absolutely, and that's actually I mean, that's actually one of the reasons why I developed this new model that I call the three phases of grief, because I'm sure you well, I know you've spoken about the stages of grief in your podcast in a previous episode. But the three stages of grief no, the five stages of grief, you know, those are just emotions really that you're feeling right, it's like okay, they're normal, you don't have to feel crazy. But I didn't really see the applicable use of it, especially for anybody around you to know and understand you. So the model I use is the three phases of grief and I call the first phase is despair and that's your fog. And I was actually, I was actually smiling a bit when I was listening to your first episode and you were saying the first year you were in the fog, the second year you were coming back to life and now you know you're, you're creating this beautiful life and that's exactly the structure.
Speaker 2:So the first phase, the despair, that's when you're in the fog and you're not receptive and you just you know you're just in preservation, doing what you need to do. It's the difficult, the most painful. The beauty of knowing this and recognizing it is that, even though grief is so individual, there is no length. You can't say, oh, it lasts for this long or this long. You know it's going to vary, but it's usually the first phase. But you can come back and forth, of course, but it's usually when it's it's when you're in the most pain, so that's easy to recognize.
Speaker 2:And then the second second phase is the receptive phase. Like you said, you're starting to come out of the fog. You're starting to come back to life, which means you're receptive to inputs from your surroundings. This is when you can start growing. This is when you can start figuring out how am I going to, how am I going to do this? You know how can I talk to people, and people can talk to you much easier. And then the third, last phase is what I call the, the resignation or enlightenment. The reason, is true, is because some will go for resignation, by which I mean they try to go back to their old life and kind of get into the rut of things. For some people this will work. From my experience and from everybody I've spoken to, in most cases it doesn't.
Speaker 2:It's a temporary thing but, it's going to be individual, but then we have the enlightenment, which is where I believe you are now and where I recognize myself. This is where you've embraced the fact that you have this new life and you've learned to live with the grief but you're able to have a new, amazing life with it.
Speaker 1:I love that. I absolutely love it, yeah, a lot of, even even now doing different things. Like currently I just redid my bedroom and I got rid of some furniture and I'm just making it mine because since my husband passed I haven't really slept in here a lot, Just mentally block I just I don't. So I decided just redo everything, make it mine. And my daughter said something yesterday. She's like well, I know it's hard and I'm like it's really not. I almost feel bad for saying that, but I am truly. I just feel like I'm in a good place. Like I I worked hard to get here and now I feel like I'm in a good place and it's okay to continue to live a good life. It's okay to be happy and I think a lot of people do struggle with that sometimes but like I'm okay with where I'm at.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thank you so much for sharing that and I, yeah, that is so important and I, like you said, there are so many people, I think all of us on that healing journey have a huge area, a huge timeline where we're in that back and forth between guilt and you weren't able to do that with your bedroom before because you had that guilt like, no, I can't do that, I can't do that.
Speaker 2:And to just share that story and tell people that, no, you don't need to feel guilty, because we all need to hear that at times. That it is okay to be happy. You know, that was the biggest pivotal point for me in my healing journey as well, was when I realized that I could be happy and grieve at the same time. Then it was like, oh, okay, I can actually live again and I was able to let go of that guilt for every single smile. So, yeah, thank you for sharing that Beautiful.
Speaker 1:And I think it's I don't know if it's the guilt of. You know the person that you lost and it's just hard to, I guess, grasp that you should be happy without them or you can be happy without them, or then you have the social aspect, which I've talked to someone about before. You know where everybody is judging you for the way that you're grieving, or you know what I'm saying Like there's just so many opinions of how you should be or what you're doing, and you just have to block those out. You just have to not give a shit what everybody's thinking, because they're not going through what you went through. It's not their life, it's none of their business, and if they're judging you for that, they shouldn't be in your life in the first place. They're not your people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, there's always going to be people like that. It is, and, you know, I normally try to think that it comes from not knowing. You know, it comes from them not having a clue not because they're trying to be bad people, but they don't have a clue. But at the same time, I agree with you that they might not need to be in your life because it's not your job to have to educate them Right? And that was actually one of the reasons that I felt it's so important to create this online course straight away, because I remembered so vividly myself when I was in like the despair phase and I knew that people around me who love me, they wanted to help me, but they didn't know what to do and they wanted me to tell them.
Speaker 2:And I was like fuck, I can't do that. I can't tell you what to do. I don't even know what I need or what I want. And even if I did, I can't tell you. I don't have the strength, and I think that's a very common problem for people to have. So, by being you know, I figured that I decided then like, okay, one day, when I'm in a space where I'm good enough to do so, I need to be that bridge. I need to fill that gap, to connect people, to give them something to turn to, rather than the person who's actually in grief.
Speaker 1:How do you which I think is amazing how do you? What's your biggest route to get that into people's hands, though, because I feel like a lot of people. If they've not been through it, I guess what what makes them want to learn about it? Everybody's going to go through it at some point in life. If you haven't already you're you're damn lucky, but we're all going to go through it. We're whether we know somebody that's lost, somebody that is a huge effect or whether you're going to lose the people yourself, because I personally think something like that. Everybody needs to have knowledge and have in their hands, because it's going to happen. There's going to be a time where you need to help your friend, you need to help a family member get through this, and having the right tools is huge. Knowing how to approach them or not approach you know or just sit with them is such a big deal, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, and it's such a valid point that you bring up because it is difficult, because, even though it would make sense to be preemptive about it and learn before you're in that situation, people don't, you know, they want to tuck their head in the sand and pretend like it's not going to happen. You know, even though it's like, the one fact of life is that everybody dies. So there is no way around it, like you say. But people will still, you know, pretend and cover up their eyes until until it hits them. So unfortunately it's.
Speaker 2:It's not easy to get anybody to join a program like this until they're actually in the situation. Once you're in the situation and you know, then you kind of become, then you become open to it because you're like oh crap. So you know, anybody who, like I know, like to take an example instead of anybody else, I can take my, my own example and be like my parents. You know, obviously they were going through a tremendous loss themselves, but for them it was heightened because they were seeing me in that pain at the same time and not knowing what to do. Right At that stage, you're like I need help. Unfortunately, most people need to get to some place of pain before they take action.
Speaker 2:Yes, and that's that, of course, I'm hoping, like doing, I'm hoping, like interviews like this podcast cast, like yours, you know, and and all these kind of things. And just you know, like I said, I really focus on my Instagram, facebook, on spreading this kind of information because even if it's just a little bit here and there, you hear it enough time something's going to sink in. So so the more I talked about it right out, you know, the better.
Speaker 1:And there's so much. I mean, there's a lot out there for the people who are grieving, but I haven't heard a lot about something like you're doing, where you're focusing on the people surrounding them and how to help, and that's just. It's amazing. I love it.
Speaker 2:Thank you. Thank you, that means a lot to me.
Speaker 1:Would you like to tell them where they can find the information or where they can find you, and I'll link it in the so I think it in the thing too.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, if you link up the, because it's a little hard to spell my name for most people. So, but it's, I'm on all the main socials that act Tonya Wyn Jones, so that's just my name all all together. And the same is with my website, really, and every all the information will be able to find on there. I, if you'd like, I do have a free guide that I'd love to offer up to your listeners. If you, that would align with your channel.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I'll give you the the link to it, but it's my website, tonyawynjonescom. And then forward slash seven steps support and it's just, it's a, it's a quick guide called seven steps to support, which goes in through like the seven biggest kind of steps to go through, and then there's some tips on like actionable steps you can take to help somebody who's going through a tough time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thanks for sharing that. We will definitely link that and get it out there. Hopefully we'll share in it and maybe we get a lot of shares and get some people to you and that way we can get this in more hands so that everybody better understands how to help.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because it's you know I you talked about it in I think it was episode six. I think it was episode six you were talking about, like you know, you're going through a list, talking about like things that people go through in grief and and you came to the like the tough questions and I was like, yes, I so agree, and it's like the most simple when people say, how are you, it's like it's the most normal question to get and the go to question for everyone and then when you're in grief, it's like the toughest, most difficult question to receive.
Speaker 1:If you agree with that 100%, and I got to a point where I would just tell them how I was and most of the time they would quit responding Because you get so tired of just playing, you know I'm fine or I'm okay, or just bullshitting your way through it. Finally, I'm like let me just tell you exactly how I am, and then they really don't know what to say and then kind of they just taper off. I'm like you ask, I'm telling you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but didn't you also feel like, especially in the beginning, when it's like you don't know what to answer, if you say you're fine, that's like a stab of guilt again? Yeah right, that was a big, big struggle for me initially because I was like you're so torn and I found that even just going to the grocery store I was so mentally exhausted, even before I left the door, because I was going through my mind like how am I going to respond, how I'm going to react if I run into someone? What's my answer going to be? You know? And and that question was always like the dreaded question, how are you? And it's like okay, should I say that I'm not fine, which is kind of the truth, but that will start a whole thing. I might ruin their day. Or should I say that I'm fine, but then I feel guilty and horrible for neglecting my daughter? Of course I'm not fine. Maybe they think I'm some kind of lunatic that doesn't miss my daughter. And it was this huge back and forth and you're, it's a big deal.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it's huge and, like you said, it's such a small question, but it turns into this big ass deal and you just see your way in it. You're like tell the truth, tell the lie, make them feel better, Make me feel worse. Like you know, it's just which, just never asked everybody's doing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, actually, that you know who Jenna Kutcher is. Yeah, she wrote. She wrote the book. How Are you Really? And I look at that and it's like, and I love the distinction, I love that what she did with it and go like, okay, that we shouldn't ask just who are. How are you? It's, how are you really if we actually care? And the only challenge there is you can't ask that when you just run into somebody in the store. How are you really? You know it's work. It has to be in the right setting, it's. It's not that we can't ask somebody how, how they are, but do you want to know the answer you know? Are you asking just because that's what you're used to doing? It's just a you know just flows out of your mouth without thinking about it. Or are you actually curious about how the person is doing? And I think most of the time people don't even take the time to think about it.
Speaker 1:They just say it and you're supposed to say oh yeah, and I think it's definitely a phrase that just immediately, when you see somebody, you're like, hey, how are you? And you, and a lot of times you just it just comes out no fault of their own. But if you're going to ask somebody who's grieving, be prepared, because some people may tell you they're okay and some people are going to let loose and tell you exactly how they're feeling. So just the thought.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. And that is it's so important. When you're saying there as well, it's because it's going to depend and it's not like there is, there isn't a right or a wrong answer to it. And you know, and I've spoken to some who will always say I'm fine, and I've spoken to some who will never say they're fine, because it feels like a betrayal.
Speaker 2:And then you know, I found myself going back and forth, like you're describing it, that like sometimes you just go like, okay, you know what I'm at a party, I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna say I'm fine, because they don't actually want to know. And I actually got to like I was saying I would prep myself before going out. And eventually you can, I think you kind of create your own tool bag with some go to answers that you can quickly get to, because you get the same questions over and over again. And you can kind of you can kind of build up almost this repertoire of things you can, you can say and throw at them, depending on the situation, but that becomes kind of mechanical. So it's again it's it's more of a social task than really helpful to the person in grief, I believe.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I definitely agree with that. You just come up with whatever makes makes life easier at the moment, especially in the social settings where it's not to, not necessarily people that you would, you know, talk about your whole life to or you know whatever. You just come up with some quick answers and kind of move on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and like I, you know, because I lost the daughter, and you know, I think anyone who loses a kid has the same thing, because so often we get asked oh, how many kids do you have? And they're asking it in this joyful you know kind of way because they're not I don't know anything about you, you're meeting somebody and it's like, oh nice to meet you, how many kids do you have? And and I think it's very normal to think okay, some choose to go with, okay, who's living, and just count that because it's just the simplest and easiest way. I'm more in the second group, who is like she is still my daughter, even if she's not here. So I have four kids and I've had so many different variations of this.
Speaker 2:Very often now I will say you know, I got 4 kids, 3 of them are living with me. Some pick up on that quite quickly and so I tried to give it in pieces so that I can feel out how deep the other person actually wants to go. But that's. I'm able to do that because I'm so.
Speaker 2:I've done so much work on this myself, so I know what I'm safe with, I know what I feel comfortable with, so then I can judge it. But that's not something I was able to do, you know, initially by any means. But now I'm okay with myself, so that means I can feel the other person. So then I'll do it gently and kind of say that way. And then, if they keep asking, you know, of course more and more comes out, and once they start asking about the ages, well then, all of a sudden, when you have one that's 10, and then the second one is one and a half and then the third one is five, then they start doing the math and something you know kind of off and some people don't pick up on it and I'm like, okay, they don't actually want to know, so I don't need to go anywhere.
Speaker 2:And that's just me that hassle of having to say like, yeah, I have four kids who are one of them died, because that's normally like a move too heavy for people to take. But, um, but, yeah, there's, there's. No, there's no right or wrong way of doing it, obviously, but I think with, with practice which I think is very useful and important you can get to find your kind of toolbox that makes it easier to to interact and see and recognize if somebody actually wants to help you or actually wants to hear your story, or if it's just like a yeah, let's just talk. You know, I don't actually care what you're saying, I just want to say my thing and ask people like questions Right now.
Speaker 1:Do you maybe you cover in your, in your thing, comparisons of grief?
Speaker 2:I feel like that's a big one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I feel like I struggled with that a lot because every group you know we all every grief is different. Every my loss with my husband is very much different than your loss with your daughter.
Speaker 2:And.
Speaker 1:I feel like sometimes people try to. Well, I know where you're coming from or I know how you feel, because I you know what I'm saying, Like, and sometimes for me I can be a bitch sometimes and I'm like that's totally different, Like it's it's nothing to do, Like you have no idea what I'm dealing with, because the loss is different and even though it's the same person, maybe we lost the same person the loss and is very much different for each of us. Did you go through that and do you cover any of that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. And first I want to correct you you're not being a bitch for saying that, you're being honest, which is the opposite of being a bitch, in my opinion. So people do need to hear the honesty and they need to hear that because, again, I don't think people are coming with malice. You know they're not trying to hurt you. They actually trying to be helpful, but it's not helpful. So you tell them that is actually helpful. So I think I think just keep doing that.
Speaker 2:But, yes, no, I think it is so normal to compare grief, and I think we do it ourselves in a way also, but there is no comparison. I agree with you, all grief is individual. There is absolutely no way to compare it. But I, of course, I experienced it so many times. And I think even worse is because people are trying to find a connection. I think that's what it's about. They're trying to find a connection to you and again, they're coming from their ego. It's not coming from compassion, it's coming from their ego. They're trying to connect with you and they want to find what can I say? So then their brain races to find a story of similarity, and I've had those to the extreme, you know, and I've had like like.
Speaker 2:Very often somebody will be like oh yeah, I know actually my neighbor's daughter. She lost a kid about the same age as your daughter. And you know, I'm like what's the point of this story? Are you trying to make me feel worse by adding on a sad story? What is the point of this? And I think their point is just to connect. But to me that doesn't help me at all and I would get those kind of things a lot in the beginning.
Speaker 2:And then some people because I think the ones who have actually gone through something similar they would never say that Right, I would never come to you and say like, oh, he lost your husband. I know, I know how you're feeling. I wouldn't say that to you because I know so well that I do. Right, there's just no way I would say that.
Speaker 2:So when it happens, you know, you almost know straight away somebody starts going like oh, I know. Then you're just like oh God, you don't. And then you just put on like that, okay, I'll just like la, la, la, la, la, la. I try not to listen to you. And because I found myself. What it did to me was it either pissed me off or it made me upset because now I'm hearing about this other tragic situation and this other poor parent who lost their kid, or you know. And it just added to it and I found like I couldn't watch anything sad on TV or anything because it just added and I had enough. I had enough sadness and grief with my own. I didn't need anything else. I couldn't watch the news, so I don't need somebody else coming up to me and telling me sad story.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:But it happens all the time. So, yeah, I do. I do cover that in the course as well. I'm talking about how that, yeah, there is no comparison with grief. And then it's also in the same way. I think it's also important to remember, because I think a lot of people can go the other way and be like, oh, I've never lost a daughter, I've just. I've just lost, you know, my grandma, who was dear to me, and then they kind of feel like their pain is not as bad as mine.
Speaker 1:So now I can't share, you know, because I haven't been through something as bad as you, and that's why I feel that, because I think my husband was this big personality and he had he had a big impact on a lot of people and a lot of his friends his close friends, I think felt like they couldn't come to me because they felt like their loss wasn't as bad as my loss. And that hurt to a point, you know, because I'm like we lost the same person, though, and even though that grief is different, I never wanted them to sit back and act like that wasn't happening because it was my husband, and they felt like my loss was bigger, if that makes sense, and I know that that happened many of times for several people, and I felt like shit for it and not necessarily my, it wasn't necessarily my fault, but they just felt like they couldn't come to me with that because of the loss that I had.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's, and it's very common. I refer to it as the circles of grief, often where you know, like in your case you would be right in the middle. You know you and your children, that's the biggest loss. And then you know, then you have the parents, his parents, you know, and then you have best friends and acquaintances, and then and it goes out, and I would say that in each of these circles the grief is valid, it's just as valid, it doesn't. There is no comparison. But at the same time, what you just need to be attuned to is that we don't go to somebody in the inner circle to help somebody you know. So if you are in the inner circle, you can go to anyone outside to get support to you, but somebody who's in the outer circle can't come to you for support. But they can share and they can be with you, but they just have to be mindful of what state they're coming in.
Speaker 1:Uh-huh, that makes sense.
Speaker 2:Never thought about it that way and it's I think that as well is something to create a lot of friction in many, in many families and many relationships. You know, because people are different, people react differently. Some people are way more emotional than others, you know, and a good friend of mine who lost her boy, she would get phone calls from her sister in the middle of the night where the sister is crying because she's so upset, she's so sad that she's lost her nephew. She's like I cannot help you with this, right.
Speaker 2:It's like there's no, because she's in the outer circle, so she cannot come to the mum of the child and ask for support. Yeah, and you can't talk together, but that's not where you go to get your support right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 2:I get that you're. You heard you say your husband had a huge circle of friends and that you've had a kind of a different scenario where you have not the same connection to all of them that he had, and it was very interesting, yeah. So that balance there would then figure it out who to keep in your life and who to not keep in your life. But I think it's very important, like you shared, that I heard you say and I really agree that just you don't do anything that doesn't feel good or do anything that you don't want to do, and I think that's so important and it really goes for most people.
Speaker 2:But I think it's especially important when you have, when you're dealing with grief and living with grief, because it takes a lot of mental power and physical power to deal with. So I think a big step for anyone who goes through grief is to kind of try to cut down what depletes your energy, because you're already burning so much more than most people are doing. So the quickest thing to do that is you know anything. Like you said, if it drains, you cut it out. You know as much as you can and things obviously we have to do. But yeah, I thought that was really well said because it is so important to do.
Speaker 1:And when? Well, when my husband was here, he was the social one, he was the one that needed to be, have all the people in his life and go to all the things, and I was never that person. I would tag along when I needed to or whatever, and after he passed. When your life changes in such big ways, then you just realize what's important and what you want out of life. And life is too short, so I want to enjoy everybody in my life. I don't want the drama, I want to live life how I want to and make memories with my kids, and that's what's important to me.
Speaker 1:So if it drains me, if I don't want to do it, if I feel like it's, you were just invited because you were on. You showed up on the list. Like you know, we really don't spend time together I'm not coming Like I'm probably not even gonna bullshit you and tell you I might Because it's just not important to me and I want to focus my time on the things that are important, the things that make us happy, and keep moving that way.
Speaker 2:That's life's too short not to oh yeah, beautiful that to me, right there where you just shared. That's living in alignment, that's the enlightened phase, right, that's beautiful to hear that you're there.
Speaker 1:I do have to say, though, I don't think the growth Like with you and I, because, you know, two years ago going through grief, I would have never thought that I would be able to have a podcast or even be talk about any of this or even attempt to help somebody Going through these situations. But the fact that we can sit here and have a conversation about it and not be crying or down or, you know, just be able to be positive in helping others deal with these things is amazing to me, because two years ago I wouldn't have thought that's where I could be, and that was when I started this. I was worried that everybody would think, oh, it's a grief podcast, everybody's going to be on their crying and it's just going to be all sad and 100%. It has not been since the beginning. Of course we'll cross those roads and we'll have some sad times, but everything so far has been in a positive of how we can help others heal and how we each get through the things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, and it's you know, and that's also what I really want to empower in people as well, is that it is a part of the human experience. We cannot avoid it. But that doesn't mean we have to sit around crying Right, just like you just said it's. It doesn't have to be that way, it's just part of life. It's painful, it hurts, it sucks, but it's part of life.
Speaker 1:Absolutely Well. Is there anything else you would like to add before we close out?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I like to leave with an encouragement and that is going back to what we already spoke about but I would just love for more people to think ahead and try to lead with compassion. Whenever you're meeting someone, whatever the situation, lead with compassion. We're so quick to judge each other, and I get it. I completely get it. I used to do the same myself. I used to think that I was a non-judgmental, you know, person who was open in all this, and I didn't realize how judgmental I was.
Speaker 2:Until you get this outside view of it, you know like I would get angry. Like somebody cut me off in traffic, I'd be like dick. You know it's a natural response, right, we're so used to it. It just happens. But there's no good that comes from that. All that happened was that I would get angry, right, and then that might ruin my day. I never do that anymore. If somebody cuts me off in traffic, I leave with compassion. I think, okay, maybe they're off to the hospital to watch their loved one going through a hard time, maybe they just lost a daughter, I don't know. We don't know what's going on in each other's minds, right? So lead by compassion. That way you don't get upset, you don't get angry and you don't need to judge people because you don't know what's going on.
Speaker 1:Nope, you never know what's going on in somebody else's life. Well, thank you very much for being here. I really enjoyed our conversation and then I will link all of your things and the notes when I get this uploaded, and we're going to end this today and appreciate you being here.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for having you. I really, really appreciate the work that you do. Thank you.
Speaker 1:And.
Speaker 2:I love your message with the podcast and you have your own unique tone of voice of doing it and even though I completely disagree with you being awkward and a bitch, I do not agree with those.
Speaker 1:Then that means you're my people.
Speaker 2:I think that you're being yourself, and that's something that I truly, truly value. Integrity is very important to me and so, yeah, you keep doing you and I appreciate you. Thank you, thank you so much.